RuneScape:Requests for deletion/Money making guide/Making divine super combat potions

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Money making guide/Making divine super combat potions[edit source]

Your reason(s).

Delete - This money making guide, and the other similar divine potion money making guides, are not useful articles.

They do not take into account the time required to gather the untradeable crystal shards, which makes the 9m+/hr gp rate unrealistic.

The existing Wiki article for Crystal Shards is more useful in conveying this information.

At minimum, this should be moved to the "recurrent methods" moneymaking section.

EDIT: To clarify my initial comment, I mean that this information is not useful in the context of a money making guide. These guides all take into account the total time associated with the activity (e.g. banking, waiting for respawns, etc.), not just the time spent actively making money. Since a huge amount of time has to go into collecting these crystal shards, with lucrative activities maybe yielding 20-30 shards/hr, the 9m/hr figure is not helpful for Wiki users looking for a high value activity to do. A similar analogy would be trading in Marks of grace for amylase. Sure, marks have zero value since they are untradeable and it takes some time to trade them in, but it would be silly to have a 20m+/hr money making guide called "buying amylase."

When I say the article for Crystal shard is more useful in conveying this information, I suggest the gp/hr rates be added to the existing table on that article. Users interested in gp/hr information are more likely to check that article than to check the money making guides page. My main concern with this page is that it clutters Money making guide with non-viable methods.

--Jdeerturner (talk) 23:25, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Merge - This money making guide (and all other "Making divine potion" articles) are significantly different from every other article in the Money making guide page. They do not take into account the time required to gather the untradeable crystal shards, which makes the 9m+/hr gp rate misleading. While some other money making guides do have prerequisites (e.g. slayer levels, quests completed, gear unlocks), they can all be done continuously for several hours at a time without significant time ignored to re-prep for the activity.

Many players do have saved up shards (and may have even gathered them passively) and would be curious about gp/hr conversion rates. Because of this, I don't think this information should be totally removed, but rather added to one of the tables in the article for Crystal shards. Players interested in converting shards to gp are probably more likely to read that article, while players interested in general, complete money making activities read money making guides.

I think that leaving these articles where they are sets a precedent for other misleading activities with huge preparation time:

Some of these are examples are more of a stretch than others, but my point remains that money making guides shouldn't arbitrarily ignore the time required to prepare for an activity.

--Jdeerturner (talk) 21:10, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Keep - I made these after several people requested me to. I asked in the discord beforehand if they were fine and got okays from several more people. These are useful for anybody that has shards, and the 9m/hr rate is very realistic for those people. They explicitly warn that they make a basic assumption that you have shards already. I think that is a fair assumption, as otherwise our choice is adding a value to the shards based on either the profit of the potions or the several different trade-in costs and I think that's a bad idea as we'd have to make an assumption on how readers choose to gather shards.

The crystal shard page is not useful for conveying this money maker compared to a money making guide on the main money making guide page.

This is not a recurring method, recurring methods are limited by time. zTUG5mD.png Crow  21:50, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I'd be supportive of moving them to be named something like Money making guide/Using pre-collected crystal shards/Making divine X potions if that's clearer for people looking at the main main mmg page that don't want to take 2 seconds to read the big red warning. zTUG5mD.png Crow  22:32, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
I think the ideal scenario for me right now is to re-categorize these into a new section dedicated for mmgs like this, separate from the main table, mmgs which have an untradeable input that we assume you have infinite of (passively collected or otherwise) to do the method and so you can compare the methods with the same input, this would include things like killing skotizo or making divine pots, idk about methods where you buy things given the lack of ability to really define the rates on those but maybe. zTUG5mD.png Crow  23:49, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Delete - previous precedent set with nihil pouches on RS3 Wiki where article was deleted in the end. These were similar in that you had to gather resources in order to make them. Unhelpful and misleading; if we were to keep it, then it should factor in the time to get crystal shards doing gauntlet/zalcano/whatever. Ozank (talk) 21:53, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

We are not RSW and a deletion 6 years ago is hardly precedent in any stretch of the imagination. How would you factor in time to get shards? Arbitrarily choose from the dozen methods to obtain shards? What about buying shards via seeds, that takes practically no time at all, would you assign a gp value to the shards based off that, ignoring the other methods to obtain them entirely? zTUG5mD.png Crow  21:59, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
Last I checked a lot of admins on RS3 Wiki are also admins as well as a fair amount of editors also edit here so I disagree saying that we're nothing to do with them. The arbitration of acquiring shards is my second best choice to be honest, I'd rather see the whole thing gone altogether since it's clearly misleading. I am quite certain it's wasting user's time with it being top of MMG by default anyway - highly doubt the average player, even end game player, has an abundance of crystal shards/dust to use by chance, especially post Bow of faerdhinen. Ozank (talk) 22:13, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
There being a very small amount of crossover between RSW and OSW editors or admins doesn't mean that we follow consensus found on RSW. Maybe when you were an admin that was the case, it certainly hasn't been the case for several years though. I am also unable to find any RFD for the deleted money making guide you listed, seems like it was speedily deleted with no reasoning given so that point is entirely moot anyways, there was no form of consensus given to take precedent from even if we did take precedent from RSW.
I don't see how it's misleading, the listed GP/hr is the rate you will be able to get if you use the money making guide. Several players requested me to make them because they have an abundance of crystal shards so clearly some people do. zTUG5mD.png Crow  22:32, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Keep - But move. I think Crow's idea about moving to a subpage or something is useful. I do think these guides overall are useful especially when considering prior to Bow of faerdhinen release it was possible to buy items that could be turned into shards and made into divine combats for a really good profit. That isn't possible anymore though. We could also add a some calculations that would add a more "manual" obsolete mmg category tag calculating the profit from trading in stuff and turning it into something else. That way with tradable items it will only show up when its possible to profit without having to obtain your own, but the mmg can still be listed on the crystal shard page/divine pot page Fjaratalk 14:06, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Delete - Money Making Guides should all include requirements/inputs and outputs, and not hand-wave "assuming you have infinite crystal shards...". Consolidate into a single 'gathering and processing crystal shards', cross-referencing and for rates.  —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2603:7000:2b00:39a9:dd72:c39b:df01:29c9 (talk) on 18:35, 23 September 2021 (UTC).

I get what you're saying, but this is already similar to an assumption that we make for other guides, albeit for gear rather than crystal shards. Like Money making guide/Killing Phosani's Nightmare makes 6.5 mil an hour currently, but that's obviously with max gear. Considering lots of people have shards stacked up from doing things like Zalcano, two tick teaks, and crystal trees, it isn't unbelievable that people have enough shards to do this. I'm not entirely sure how this has changed with the addition of the Bow of faerdhinen. This guide also doesn't make the assumption that you have infinite crystal shards, it gives you a rate per hour, if you don't have enough to do a whole hour it still gives you a rate for the time you do spend. - Andmcadams (talk) 19:20, 23 September 2021 (UTC)
Non-consumable gear is a requirement, not an input. Once you have the gear you have it forever and for all applications. Crystal shards are an input, they are a consumable component of the process that need to be constantly and endlessly supplied while you are doing the activity. A much more accurate analogy would be using the scythe of vitur in a MMG. You could make the assumption that you have all of the components to charge the scythe laying around and not include their cost, but that would be misleading as they do incur a significant cost and are a constant input to the process. Even if you put a big warning saying that this guide assume already gathered resources to charge the scythe, I doubt many would find that acceptable. If vials of blood suddenly became untradeable the MMG that used a scythe would jump up in coins per hour but in reality the value of doing the activity would drastically decrease in value as getting the vials of blood yourself would incur a much greater cost in time and consumables than it currently does to buy them. I would argue that keeping such a guide up as if it had become much more profitable all of the sudden would be very misleading. Haxses (talk) 18:19, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
Looking back, my wording is pretty unclear. When I said that the guides are similar, what I really meant is that while this MMG assumes you already have shards, the Phosani's Nightmare one assumes that you already have 500m+ in gear. If you don't have this gear, the MMG is not really useful or reliable. Similarly, for people who do not have shards, this MMG is useless. I do agree with you that gear is not an input (excl charges) and that the crystal shards are. I think the key thing with shards is that many people passively get them from doing various Prif activities (Gauntlet, 2t teaks, Zalcano). Even if you don't have enough for a full hour, it is still useful to know how it compares to other money making guides because it helps answer the question of whether or not it is worth your time to convert them. For example, if making the super combat potions was only 100k an hour, there's no way anyone would consider it worth doing over doing Phosani's NM. This isn't a unique or hypothetical situation either. I had about 1k ring nests from birdhouses, and I wasn't sure if it was worth the time to open them. The nests are untradeable in their ring form and opening them is not zero time (if you don't open them during runs). If I could make 5 m/hr from TOB and only 200k/hr opening ring nests, I wouldn't bother with the ring nests. But it turned out that opening the nests was something like 24m/hr. Obviously that made it worth it to sit there and open them. Since birdhouses are efficient to do, it is not unrealistic to assume that players end up with a lot of them. However, like crystal shards, it is not the same gp/hr when you consider the time to get them. This and the crystal shards are not necessarily the same as regular MMGs, which is why I'd be for a separate section/page, but they are activities that can be compared to MMGs in a useful manner. In your scythe example, it seems you are assuming that people are going out of their way to farm the item for the scythe for the sole purpose of this MMG, which I think is sufficiently different than the shard/nest examples. - Andmcadams (talk) 19:21, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Keep, but rename the MMG or split MMG table - To me, the biggest problem is that this sits at the top of the table and assumes that you have shards. I wouldn't mind having a separate MMG table (if technically possible) for things like these "MMGs that use passively gained items". Especially since it is the most profitable activity currently, it makes some sense to split it out. This would give room for other MMGs, like killing Skotizo with pre-collected totems, to be made.

In regards to the argument about buying amalyse with marks of grace, I do not think that's a fair comparison because buying them is so insanely fast that there's no way you can accrue enough marks to do that for an appreciable amount of time. One inventory would be 270 marks and maybe 10 ticks to open them all if you can open multiple per tick, so let's be incredibly generous and say 10 hours of Ardougne rooftops for one inventory. It's fast enough that you can just assume buying the packs is zero time, there's no actual "activity" taking place when just buying the marks. Compare that to making divine super combats, where it is quite possible to get 840 crystal shards for a single hour or more. Of course not everyone will have enough shards, but the number of people who do is much, much higher than the number of people who could even do 15 minutes of straight up buying amalyse. I think the fact that people asked for these MMGs to be created, but as far as I know, no one has asked for a "Buying amalyse" one, is pretty self-evident. If the MMGs are useless due to the bow of faerdhinen, then I'd be in favor of deleting them, but I don't think the proposed reason is enough to delete them. - Andmcadams (talk) 19:20, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Delete - To me this is very deceptive. It would be akin to making a guide called "Buying Uncut onyx with tokkul" and assuming you have infinite tokkul and calculating some ridiculous value like 100m/hr. At the very least it should include the time to gather the Crystal dust. I also think this is nothing like a gear requirement for a money making guide as the gear required to kill bosses is not consumed. Food, potions, etc are are usually added with their cost shown in the input section. --Honorable (talk) 16:02, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment from Talk page

We could keep this if this calculation considered the price of the shards/dust and the time it takes to grind them. has information that the price on one shard is about 20K. IT does add 16.8 million GP to the cost calculation making the profits negative.
-- 20:56, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Fjaratalk 21:51, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Keep/Suggestion - Keep but recategorize these MMG so it's not displayed on the main tables. Similarly we should try to create a standardization to categorizing problematic MMGs that have similar issues of collection time (ie. mole parts has low ge limits, cleaning herbs which requires insane amounts of investment gp). We already do this in a sense for recurring MMGs. Shoyrukon (talk) 16:42, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Delete - Although it is a useful page, it absolutely cannot be included along with regular money makers. All the divine potion pages add clutter to the top of the money making list, and should be moved to either the recurring section or preferably their own section. --Mannana (talk) 17:49, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Keep/Suggestion We could incorporate the cost of divines by using the price of an item that is typically converted into crystal shards, such as the enhanced teleport seeds. If you use the GE value of that item you can come up with a price per crystal dust, which can be used in the expenses column of the article so it's more accurate. Jenny Spence (talk) 00:36, 03 December 2021 (UTC)

Delete Keep - The article is at best incredibly misleading. Many other responders have weighed in with similar opinions, but allow me to reiterate precisely why I believe this page should be deleted:

It blatantly ignores the most expensive aspect of the method: acquiring the crystal shards.

The player must either:

  1. Spend their time, and thus opportunity cost, acquiring the shards by running the Gauntlet for many, many, many hours in order to be able to produce divine potions for one single hour; or
  2. They must spend millions of GP in order to purchase crystal seeds, break them down, and actually lose money in the process of crafting the potions.

In first case-scenario, the Gauntlet would be the means of acquiring the shards. This case-scenario would imply that a player spent dozens of hours in the Gauntlet in order to produce divine potions for one single hour. In this case, the page egregiously misrepresents the amount of time required to make use of this method. Players cannot make divine potions for hours on end, as their supply of crystal shards is typically quite limited.

In the second case-scenario, we assume an unlimited number of shards can be acquired, due to GP being exchanged for crystal seeds which are in turn broken down, their shards to be used in the potion-making process. In this case, the capital investment required to purchase the seeds is substantial — so much so that a player cannot expect to profit from this money-making method when performed in this manner.

In either case, this money-maker is a massive red-herring. Players will be misled as to the realistic potential for profit, as there is absolutely no way that the rates portrayed in the article could be maintained for an extended period of time. Furthermore, the actual profit made from this method — if you are somehow able to turn one — is highly dependent on how the shards were acquired.

Using crystal shards in the process of potion-making is absolutely a money-making method, but it should not be advertised in a way that pretends there is no cost or worth to an item simply because it is untradable. More care should be taken when determining the value of a technically valueless item. At the very least, the effective cost of the shards should be factored into the equation instead of being assumed to be gratis.

I believe, in this case, it may be wise to consider cleansing with fire.

Finally, I would like to clarify that I maintain this same position for all of the divine potion money-making guides. Perhaps consolidating them under a single article that makes clear the details above. Regardless — the pages should all meet the same fate.

Owl (talk) 08:37, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't think the time to get shards is necessarily a cost. People do this content for things other than shards and get shards as a byproduct. Gauntlet, Zalcano, thieving, 2t teaks are all things people do for other reasons (gp or xp) that also happen to give shards. It isn't unreasonable to assume that people have shards on hand. I currently have 550 in my bank, and I have never actively tried to get crystal shards. You don't need to do an entire hour of the MMG for the MMG to be a useful comparison. I totally agree that we should not leave it as it currently is, but I think factoring in the time as cost is the wrong idea because people are not (or should not be) grinding out shards for the shards themselves. If Prif content was really bad gp/hr or xp/hr to the point where people weren't doing the content anyway, I would agree with you about factoring in the time to earn shards as a cost, but that just is not the case right now. - Andmcadams (talk) 19:52, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
This response does not properly address the concerns I raised in my post. You have mentioned to many other users that you do not consider shards to have intrinsic value. This is blatantly incorrect for the reasons I have outlined. The fact is: a money-making guide for a method that is primarily contingent on possessing crystal shards may only exist by assuming all profit earned is "extracted" from those shards (it has to come from somewhere, and it isn't from the potions or the level requirement). This is clear evidence that shards do possess a measurable value. Further illustrating my point: the 550 shards you have accrued in your bank would not be sufficient to fund even one hour of this MMG. That would require over 800 shards per the current article. You can obviously accumulate shards passively, but in this case, it stretches the first point I made in my previous post to its limit. Those shards didn't magically appear in your inventory, (well, technically maybe they did), a large time investment was required in order to obtain them. You are perfectly demonstrating why this method is not a sustainable money-making method, is highly unrepresentative of reality, and why this guide should NOT stand on its own. It is a method that is subordinate to other Prifddinas content, which is to say, you cannot grind this method over any extended period of time. You must first do other content. A somewhat apt comparison would be opening herb boxes. In this method, while the "GP per hour" is nearly 1,000,000gp, the MMG properly addresses that only 15 boxes may be opened per day, and that the NMZ points must be acquired in advance (at a maximal rate of X per hour). While the herb box method is similarly misleading, it manages expectations by providing the player additional details on the actual time or gold investment required. While it advertises 1 million gold per hour, in reality is it barely over 100K. If you factor in the time it takes to earn those points in NMZ, it's sure to be even less. Owl (talk) 22:42, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
My perspective is that a money making guide does not need to be doable for an hour to be useful. If I can only do divine potions for 30 minutes or 15 minutes, it is still useful to know that I will earn more gp/hr doing that than doing (say) Zilyana for the same amount of time. Granted, this is subjective, like I don't think that the marks of grace and amalyse deserve a MMG as buying is near 0 time even with a ton of marks. I'm not sure what you mean by I don't think shards have intrinsic value. Obviously they have value that you can extract by conversion, but without converting, they are worthless as far as gp goes. What I actually proposed (splitting these kinds of guides out of the main MMG list) is a stronger version of what you mentioned with the herb boxes. I think it should 100% be made clear that this assumes you've already got all the shards. I don't have a problem with even splitting these up from MMGs or calling them something different to make it clear. But they are directly comparable (given you have the required items). The reason the herb box MMG makes sense is because a lot of people do NMZ and therefore have a ton of points to spend already. If no one did NMZ, the MMG would be useless. This is exactly what I suggest the shards guides are like. I'm not particularly sure why you are okay with the herb box guide but want to delete this MMG instead of just changing it to be similar to the herb box one, which is what I would want to do. - Andmcadams (talk) 23:08, 3 December 2021 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I'm not really a fan of calling "buying amylase" a money-maker, or "buying herb boxes" a money-maker. The actual MMG should be: making money via agility, or making money via training combat at NMZ. It just so happens that, in the case of amylase, it is the only option for conversion; and for herb boxes, it is the only thing worth spending points on — de facto the only "correct" option — assuming you're not dumping all your points at once, and with no consideration towards imbues.
  • Do agility -> get marks -> buy amylase (Agility is the money-maker).
  • Do NMZ -> get points -> buy boxes (NMZ is the money-maker).
  • Do Prifddinas content -> get shards -> make potions.
(Prifddinas content provides shards, but making potions extracts the value from said shards; both are essential parts of the process)
So, I suppose it is fair to say that making potions is in fact a money-making method, and belongs here. However, acquiring the shards is an essential prerequisite to this method. The banner recognizing this leaves something to be desired, however I have no suggestions at the moment as far as how to improve on it.
I believe that a recategorization of the page may yet be appropriate, so as to remove this method from the MMG index. The information is legitimate, but cannot be taken at face value as presented by the index. Concerns regarding the cost of converting seeds into shards should also be addressed. Players could be misled by believing this method is profitable even if they opt to break down crystal seeds as a means of obtaining shards, which is currently not the case.
All that said, I've edited my vote to reflect my changed opinion. Owl (talk) 00:48, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

Delete - This seems pretty straightforward to me. Crystal shards are an input, they are a consumable component of the process that need to be constantly and endlessly supplied while you are doing the activity. No other MMG ignores the value of inputs, even if it's a bit more obscure like the abyssal tentacle eating through a percentage of your abyssal whip. Crystal shards are not tradable on the Grand Exchange meaning we do not have a concrete market value to assign to them but I doubt many would agree that the actual value of a crystal shard is 0.

If the goal of a MMG is to increase the value of your bank (which I'd argue is true for most players) then by having already collected the shards you already have a portion of the value that this guide claims to generate, albeit in a less liquid form, and therefore the actual activity of crafting divine potions doesn't produce the value stated in these guides.

I would propose that the guide needs to account for all inputs, either by including the expected time to collect shards or the cost to buy crystal seeds to exchange for shards, or the information should be moved to a page outside the MMG section.

Haxses (talk) 18:49, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with "by having already collected the shards you already have a portion of the value that this guide claims". If you cannot sell the shards directly and they have to be converted in a way that takes time, I don't see how you can say you already have any part of the value. If I have 1 million crystal shards and want to go buy a BCP, I can't do that. You need to convert them to something first. If I can convert them at a rate where I get 6m/hr and my other money maker makes me 8 m/hr, I would go do that activity instead. So there is no value coming from the shards until you have converted them. It is definitely the case that this MMG only applies if you already have the shards, which is why I think including the time to earn the shards does not make sense. - Andmcadams (talk) 19:21, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

Delete, unless someone imminently moves them to another section - I'm getting tired of them being at the top of the MMG page, which is just silly. If someone would like to save them, please do it now (like in the next 24h) - otherwise I'll just categorize them as obsolete and make them not show up anymore. ʞooɔ 05:03, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Nobody has done this, so I'm marking them obsolete. ʞooɔ 07:17, 15 December 2021 (UTC)